Talk:Rapture
Cool Trivia? :This is very neat... but it doesn't belong in the article. Google might not leave it this way forever, since it is a fictional location. ~'Gardimuer ' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ 'ʈalk''' }]] 08:20, March 4, 2010 (UTC)'' *Google Maps has accepted pictures of Rapture at the location stated at the top of this article. (Rapture on Google Maps) ---- Adthrawn - I've gone ahead and started up the Rapture article. I'm planning on putting the concept art as the concepts for Rapture. What do you think? Coordinates for Rapture taken from flashback scene --Klivian 18:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC) The motto of Rapture is "No gods or kings." Although you can escape tyrants and kings, you can't escape God. Has anyone else noticed that Andrew Ryan looks alot like Mr. House from Fallout New Vegas.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 05:10, 2011 December 30 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. Date of riots One thing, the article cites the riots as starting on 31/12/1959, but wikipedia cites it as 31/12/1958. Which is right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 02:41, 2008 March 10 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. :"happy new year 1959"? so 31/12/1958, a day before? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 06:07, 2009 January 15 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. Lighthouse :Yeh I know I mean it is so obvious that something is going on there, great City though. Locklear 86 20:42, 19 May, 2009 ::"Oh yeah let's build a giant light house between Iceland and Greenland no one will find it" Andrew Ryan's dumb ass- 08:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC) :::Personally, when I see a lighthouse I think "oh look, a lighthouse". I don't think "Oh look, a lighthouse. That must double as an elevator to a hidden under water city." Maybe that's just me though lol.-- 19:03, September 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::I would like to point out that a lighthouse can only be seen from a mile or two away, and this lighthouse is in the center of a stretch of ocean that measures over 100,000 miles 2 (according to the coordinates of the Frozen Triangle.) Just to put that in perspective for you, that is greater than the entire area of the state of Wyoming. Finding a single lighthouse in that vast expanse is not only improbable, it is a statistical impossibility unless you know its exact coordinates. The probability that someone will fly over in an airplane and happen to pass the exact point where the lighthouse is stationed... just doesn't exist. ::::In Ryan's words: --Gardimuer 00:13, November 2, 2009 (UTC) :::::I would like to point out that lighthouses can not be stuck out in the middle of the ocean either. They have to be anchored to something. All of the real lighthouses in the world are built on dry land. So to comment on 92.9.39.137's comment about seeing a lighthouse, you'd have to wonder what one is doing way out in the middle of BFE in the ocean, if you did, in fact find it. And if Andrew Ryan was building a city in secret that was supposed to be perpetually evolving, I'll be SOMEONE would stumble on it in the next 50 plus years. That's too risky of a measure for an entire city structure. :::::However to bolster Gardimuer's comment about the stretch of ocean, the technology of that day and age was pretty limited so he's not only 100% right but he's probably even right using today's technology as well. But that's if you're out looking for it. ::::: 05:10, August 27, 2010 (UTC) Rapture Completed :I see what you mean. If you look at the Rapture Timeline you see that Ryan didn't completely disappear from the surface till sometime around early 1952 (when Lutwidge sent him a complaint about the planned shipments of steel being left to rust). Ryan must have been receiving steel until then, making the completion date more like...late 1951.--Gardimuer 00:13, November 2, 2009 (UTC) ::There are multiple "Rapture: Established 1946" posters around the city (I'm playing BioShock 2). One could very well say Nov. 5. ::-Murphy What's going on with Rapture's population? Ok, so it's pretty well known that the Rapture civil war happened a couple of years before Jack's arrival in '58, and granted, the city could well have recieved that much damage in such a short space of time that it looks as it did. Come along BioShock 2, ten years later; city still looks aged, Splicers still control the city, new Rumbler Big Daddy !! Now, I was under the impression that, with the exception of the Splicers, the Big Daddies, Little Sisters and Big Sisters and a couple of nut-case normal people (like Sinclair, Gracie etc.) the city was totally devoid of life, and had been since Jack's arrival. So, what's the deal? Is Rapture only partially destroyed, perhaps with a human population living in unaffected parts that we don't get to explore in the game, or is it totally gone and this new Rumbler is a strange newcomer without origin? 17:26, February 11, 2010 (UTC) :-Sofia Lamb was still harvesting ADAM for her project on Eleanor during that ten year timeframe as she rose to power. The Rapture Family is a cult she organized to try and keep the splicers in check. Unfortunately, the splicers still were taking little sisters for their ADAM, the same ADAM Sofia needed. With the help of Gil Alexander she developed the Rumbler, a stronger Big Daddy that was supposed to do a better job of protecting the little sisters and their ADAM. (At least, that's the understanding I've come to.) 18:23, July 3, 2010 (UTC) :-------------------------------------- Concept Map of Rapture Would you (the community) kindly start work on building a map of Rapture using what information we have? While this may be a herculean task and might involve some guessing, it would definitely be interesting to see, and would be appreciated. Best effort at creating any sort of map is here. -- 01:59, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :Well that sure hasn't gone far, the only thing mapped out is the Welcome area. I'm highly interested in creating a map of rapture. ideally i would like it to look and work something like Google Maps or something of the sort. be able to overlook the whole thing in one window, zoom, toggle what appears such as "Circus of Values" machines, be able to search for things like these machines or places throughout Rapture such as the "Kashmir Restaurant" potentially even with pictures that pop up in a window when you type in an address. If anyone is also interested in seeing this take form, please comment in this section. This project will need some kind of leader though, as the idea seems very accomplishable with enough people who want to help, however i don't have what it takes to create an interactive map such as this and i would need someone who is much better with computers than i am to be able to put it into action. :Winston Hoffner 02:54, February 17, 2010 (UTC) :Found a better attempt at the map than previously mentioned, though still from the same person. They have been inactive for some time though on that forum so it doesn't seem likely they'll be helping. This version used Google Earth as a "host" for the map, and was quite interactive as i stated above that i would like to see. However it was only mapped up until Neptunes Bounty, and i already noticed one HUGE error. In this map the Welcome Center is not attached to the Medical Pavillion. If anyone remembers going through that airlock chamber at the end of the welcome level, right after Ryan talked to you on the big TV the door on the other side went directly to the Medical Pavillion. I have NO IDEA how to work things like this into Google Earth, however i am very willing to edit the game maps down to versions such as this so they can be laid out correctly. If anyone does know how to edit things in Earth like that then please edit here, or go to my talk page so this can be discussed in more detail. Thanks, and here is the link to the newly discovered version.Rapture Interactive Map :Winston Hoffner 21:09, February 17, 2010 (UTC) ::I was looking for this. I hoped that it would show the outlines of at least half of the actual city (which is still twice that of the playable city seeing as I believe that Bioshock+Bioshock2's playable area are still less than 1/4 of the entire city. -- AzemOcram 09:55, February 21, 2010 (UTC) Project page has been created. Anyone interested in this subject should visit this page. BioShock Wiki:Map Project Winston Hoffner 16:58, February 23, 2010 (UTC) :I noticed a scaling problem with the city. Everything's too big on Google Earth. I mean, WAY too big. For example, according to the line tool, that little room at the end of Welcome to Rapture is the size of two football fields. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 01:43, 2010 February 26 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. ::Although the scale may not be accurate in its comparison to real things, like that room being the size of 2 football feilds, the maps are scaled to each other so that they can be laid out together. Since the map will be laid out in the middle of the ocean however there wont really be much that will cause a problem. Yes if you try to measure distances it will be inaccurate, but the overall idea was to lay out a map of Rapture... Not the entire world. My primary objective is just to put the map together, and document all of the amazing things inside rapture. So bottom line is that the total scale may be off, but it's still a very usable engine to create an amazing map of rapture on.... If i can get some help that is. ::Winston Hoffner 18:00, March 2, 2010 (UTC) Major Plot Holes I will admit, I believe Bioshock 1 has the best story and back story ever put into a game. The Bioshock Universe is also immense. However I have noticed some pretty significant plot holes from given canon. 1. If Andrew Ryan had successfully implemented the pheromones to Rapture, then shouldn't we see alot less bodies? 2. People have called Splicers nothing but insane, but we see them do anything normal humans would. AND CREATE THE RUMBLER BIG DADDY. 3. This wikia says Splicers killed the "sane" citizens of rapture. No they didn't. They killed anyone who didn't support their cause (Ryan, Atlas) and there are still a few sane citizens left. 4. If Rapture has sorta recovered since Bioshock 1, why no clean up? Wr1ghty 03:40, March 20, 2010 (UTC) 1. Ryan didn't use the pheromones to stop the fighting. He used them to win the war and to get people to fight against Fontaine's forces and not join them. So that would lead to a lot of bodies, since he exacerbated the civil war and the fighting by using pheromones to control people and make them his soldiers. :2. I think I remember from the developer podcasts that one of the devs said monsters that are just inhuman aren't scary. But monsters who still have traces of humanity you can see in them are scary. They purposefully created enemies that at times seem human and normal, despite being mutated and insane. But they aren't normal. After all, normal humans don't murderously attack each other upon sight, nor do they talk to themselves about all the crazy things the splicers do ("there's semen everywhere!", "i wore it for you Father, It's what you like!"), nor are normal humans delusional, thinking they're still living in the past ("Tell the minister he'll just have to wait. It's my daughter's wedding, not his.") :3. Only splicers being mind-controlled by Atlas or Fontaine (or I guess who supported their respective causes) killed those who were on the opposite side. But the other killings and attacks weren't politically motivated. Remember when the effects of splicing were just beginning to be noticed and how unspliced people's homes were being attacked? Remember how McDonagh described in Fontaine's Legacy that the attacks by the splicers on the unspliced citizens motivated unspliced citizens to become spliced to "fend off the rabble". It was a matter of survival. : :Also, there are extremely few sane, unspliced citizens left. Johnny, Fontaine (till the end), Julie, Tenenbaum, Suchong... not many others besides. Ryan ordered all the unspliced citizens to report to his officers - presumably because he wanted them spliced up so they'd also be susceptible to his pheromones (unspliced people weren't susceptible.) Failure to report was considered criminal. :Hope this helps a bit. There are some significant plot holes in Bioshock, but I don't think the ones you are concerned with are serious issues. Let me know what you think. Clicketyclick 04:12, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks alot. I wasn't aware that the sane citizens were forced to "splice" rather than being murdered as I thought. And your point about citizens splicing up to "fend off the rabble" makes sense. But I still have questions over how a bunch of nut jobs could produce the Rumbler. Wr1ghty 11:10, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Another issue that just sprung to mind (sorta related to the Rumbler) is the population. This wikia states it "peaked at several thousand." Two problems, the city looks comparable to Manhattan (though I suppose the buildings are bigger than the parts habitable). And the population of several thousand. Say it's about 5000, you could expect the majority to be killed in the civil war (say 4000). Leaving 1000 left, and we know that Jack goes on a raping spree in the first, and Delta in the second. Maybe the initla population was somehare around 10000? Wr1ghty 11:14, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :We don't know for sure how many enemies Jack killed in Bioshock 1. You can revisit previous levels, or walk into previously explored rooms and enemies will constantly spawn, so the population is technially inifnite. Canonically, Jack has no need to revisit old levels, so chances are, he killed a couple of people and moved on. It also depends on the player. Some people feel the need to kill everyone they see, others will put a target dummy and rush through the level. And I personally doubt 4000 people were killed in the Civil War, but that's my opinion.Ant423 14:10, March 20, 2010 (UTC)Ant423 ::Sorry I can't comment about the Rumbler since I haven't played Bioshock 2. All I can say, and I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, is that the Rapture you saw in Bioshock 1 was only supposed to be a small section of the city. It's possible that there are sections of the city you haven't even seen in either game. And the other thing I can comment on is that the scientists who worked for Fontaine and Ryan in creating and manipulating the BDs and LSs didn't seem to get spliced up and don't seem to have been forced to by Fontaine or Ryan. Probably because they needed to be able to think straight. So it was probably unspliced scientists who created the Rumbler. ::As for Ryan forcing people to get spliced, I missed it on my first playthrough, but there is a poster in one of the apartments in the Fighting McDonagh's Tavern about it. On the upper floor, in the apartment on the very far left (the one with the man cuff-linked to the bed... kinky) if you walk into it and then turn to look at the wall on the right side, you'll see a poster that says that every unspliced citizen must report immediately by order of Ryan. It doesn't make sense to me that he did this to build up an army, because why only take unspliced citizens, since he was going to splice them up anyway. May as well take splicers too. The thing about unspliced people is that they're not subject to mind control. Ryan was hunting down every single unspliced citizen, and it only makes sense he was doing this because he couldn't control them... yet. Clicketyclick 15:25, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :::I agree 100% with Clicketyclick. Gil Alexander is one of the scientists who built the Rumbler and he's completely lucid in the Rumbler diary, (He only becomes spliced later on when Sofia asks him to become a Utopian) And that's just one example Ant423 17:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC)Ant423 ::: i have a question if you look hard enough in the game they cover most questions about how they survived under the sea but i cannot figure out this one. Where do they get clean fresh water to drink. I have noticed in the game that they have bottled water and they can get that from the surface but there is a point where rapture was said to be totally reliant on rapture if someone could anserw this it would be nice —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 15:16, 2010 July 7 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. :My guess would be that they took all the clean water with them when they went to Rapture. Other's could have been smuggled by Fontain. There are lots of explanations to the water in Rapture. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 06:35, 2010 July 28 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. ::If Rapture can be built, along with all the amazing things therein then I think could build something like this. ::--LOST-The Cartographer 02:04, July 31, 2010 (UTC) Feasibility of building a city like Rapture Because of all the technological achievements in the past half century, a city superior to Rapture could be built with a smaller budget than Andrew Ryan fictitiously spent. Underwater cities might become the norm as land is taken up becomes less habitable. So to answer the above poster, a city built like rapture might be built in our lifetime. -- AzemOcram 01:34, December 19, 2010 (UTC) The Fate of Rapture This is a little theoretical timeline I came up with when I got bored in math class. 1969- A year after BioShock 2. After Sofia lamb destroys Peresephone, the sea floods 40% of Rapture and killing 60% of the Splicer population. 1970- After being pressed by the media and secretly contacted numerous times by the United States Department of Defence, Jack contacts Col. Eddie Gray and tells him all about Rapture. Gray does not believe him at first, but sends a team of 15 men. 3 weeks later, 4 return, telling grizly stories of Big Daddies, Splicers, and ADAM. 1972- The USDD decides to secretly take control of Rapture. Nearly 3,000 men are transported to Rapture. They begin a Splicer extermination campaign. The job is complete a year and a half later at a cost of 400 men killed, 974 injured. Just to make sure all Splicers are dead, they flood Raptures air systems with poison for 2 days straight. 1973-2000- Small groups of soldiers stay in Rapture for some time, reserching and salvaging its vast technology. Some start to splice ADAM they find, although it's forbidian. Many cases of soliders becoming Splicers and killing thier comrades are reported, but always delt with. 2002- Rapture is finaly abandoned. No one remains in Rapture and the city deteriorates even further, large portions flooded or just totaly destroyed. 2007- Rapture is destroyed. A medium sized nuclear device is placed in Rapture Central Control and the city is obliterated. Boats and planes in the area hear the blast, but it goes mostly unnoticed, save for a few tiny articles in 3 Icelandic newspapers and The NY Daily News. Deep sea divers find remants of Rapture scattred around, scientists record large traces of radiation and a large portion of an advertisment for Security Bullseye washes up on an English Beach. Fishermen still bring up chunks of masonry and metal from the area, but the truth behind all this remains known to few. Not much more is heard or seen from Rapture ever again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) Latest revision as of 16:41, 5 March 2011. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. :Article talk pages are not for purely speculatory discussion. Please register to Wikia and compose these into User Blogs like the other users do. That way, we may also provide more specific comments. ~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 22:05, March 5, 2011 (UTC) ::As MegaScience said, ideas like this belong more in blog posts, or on one of the BioShock fanfiction wikis: BioShock Wiki:Links#Related BioShock Wikis. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 23:04, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Implications of Bioshock Infinite Given that Rapture appears to be one of the alternate universes generated by the time loop caused by Booker's rebirth as Comstock, wouldn't the ending of Bioshock Infinite suggest that Rapture (and all the events related to it) was erased from history as a result of Booker/Comstock's death? If it was just meant to be an Easter Egg, it wouldn't have been used as the method of Songbird's destruction- it has to have some more significance than that. 23:10, March 27, 2013 (UTC) MAJOR SPOILERS : In short, no. Rapture was the equivalent of Columbia. Not Columbia itself. Andrew Ryan was the EQUIVALENT to Comstock/Booker. Different universes. Theoretically, Comstock could still be alive in a universe where Booker didn't allow elizabeth to drown him, there's, no pun intended, an Infinite amount of outcomes... sw201444 (talk) : EDITED- sw201444 (talk) 13:31, April 3, 2013 (UTC) :: To begin, that's a terrible pun because it's not a pun at all; that's likely why it's called Bioshock Infinite, due to the "infinite" number of worlds. In summary, the three "constants" of reality, in the universe, are: a man, a lighthouse, and a city. Rapture is a different city with a different man than Columbia, and with a different lighthouse. Rapture's fate is not tied to Columbia, but rather (and this is my opinion entirely) the existence of both cities and their similarities points to a pattern flowing throughout reality: as Elizabeth said, it always begins the same. A man, a Lighthouse, a City. Key of Destiny (talk) 13:41, April 3, 2013 (UTC) . ::: I agree with the above for the most part--but this is forgetting the implications by several voxophones that Vigors were created from the idea of Plasmids, and Songbird/Handymen from Big Daddies. Since all the songs A. Fink wrote were songs that will be, not songs that could be (i.e. songs that don't exist in our world), I think it's safe to assume that these ideas came from the same universe as well. 13:46, April 3, 2013 (UTC) Pre and Post Civil War These sections seems more of a repetition of what is already described.--Drgyen (talk) 07:04, September 29, 2013 (UTC) :I mean, before this section, the specific information are already mentioned in the "Events in BioShock" and BioShock 2". Also the "Inhabitants" parts is left blank. What's your opinion on this? --Drgyen (talk) 07:21, September 29, 2013 (UTC) Ideology While there are many major plot holes in the story, the thing that bothers me most is its ideology, and Andrew Ryan's reasons for building it. His fear of a nueclear war is perfectly understandarbel, but his liberalistic ideology makes no sense to me. He was a russian fugitives, he knew first hand how violently people reacts to oppresion, and he gained his fortune in america the most pure bread capitalistic nation on earth. There are virtually no social securites in america, whit many living in absolute powerty, and the top 1% controllinig about 46% of all the nations wealth. Its capitalism aren't as pure as Rapture, but it is as pure as it can be without fear of a massive revolt. But it aren't just the limited social reforms that keeps the people of America from revelling. The real reason is democrasy, or at least the illusion of democrasy, depending on who you ask. If the same rules of one head one vote applied in Rapture as it does everywhere else. A man with an opposing ideology to Ryan could have been elected, and changed the deep sea colonies core ideology, it was only because the poor had no power, and no chance to affect these in power that they turned to Frank Fortaine. That's why even the illusion of democrasy is so great, it releaves tension, so that people can elect a new leader if they are dissatisfied with the old. I think his failure to implement democrasy violated the very core of his ideology "No kings, no gods, only men" but he played god, and acted like a king. And he didn't want to create a utopia free of oppresion. He just wanted his own kingdom, whom he could impose his own will over as he pleased. Rphb (talk) 17:10, November 28, 2013 (UTC) You are right, the poor never have any power, and the rich have too much, Plato warned about that too in the republic. A good society needs to be an equal society. A society where no one is truly poor, or extremly rich. If you become rich enogh you no longer need to care about wellbeing of the society, if you become too poor you don't have strenth to care about anyone but yourself. If I were to create a society like Rapture I would do the ideology much differently. I would have myself crowned king, so people had a symbol to look up to. I would have a single church under the state that could be controlled, because people need religion, but if it allows many different opinions, is tolerant, an offical part of the state an universal there is no conflixt. I would also make sure to establish a seperation of powers so people know that they have influence, and that that they could trust the branches of government to be just. I would apoint an etical council, to advice on laws, to make sure that no unetical acts were performed, like the enslavement of little girls didn't happen. and to prevent more normal things like child labour and worker exploitation. I would ensure that there would be strong unions and that everyone would be represented, a companies board should have representatives from all stakeholders not just the shareholders. I would make sure to always maintain a strong efficient policeforce to prevent organized crime, and ensuring the safety of all citizens. I would build the society upon egalitarian ideals, making sure that no one truly suffered. To do this, I would make sure that there were good public schools, free universities, universal healtcare and more. And while private schools chould be a welcome adition for people with other tastes, the rise of private hospitals would be a sign of denger as they should serve no need. The core idea is that it should be a society whitout suffering, polution, crime or strife. The four core ideologies of socialism, liberalism, egalitarianism and enviromentalism should exist in harmony and balance, because that is what a good society should be. It sould be a soceity of the people, not a privileged elite. But ultimatly and lastly I wouldn't let it be isolated or alone, no I would led it known to the world, so people would be free to come, free to go because the worst thing you can do when people are unhappy is to lock them up. If they after everything you have done for them still don't like how things are, just allow them to leave and find happyness somewhere else. Rapture was never meant to be other then a dystopia, I am just saying that they could have made a better job at it, becuse only an idiot would belive what Ryan did. Rphb (talk) 23:24, January 2, 2014 (UTC) First of all, what I said was just to try to illustrate the opposite of Rapture. True it would be equally bad if it was the exact opposite, but there is nothing wrong with monarchism, not even with an active exertive king. And if we imagine that I had an immense fortune, and decided to build a floating city, because let's face it, its cheaper, then I don't think people would mind if I declared it a principality and had myself crowned fürst, because having the proper title really means a lot to me, and a city can never be anything more then a principality. Having an immense fortune it means that the capital properties of the crown would generate its own profit, profit that can be spent on welfare so we can have a higher welfare then the tax pressure would normally allow. The idea as I said is not that of a dictatorship, but that of a division of power in three: 1) An politically independent juridical branch operating under the rule of civil law, 2) A single chamber Thing with proportional representation, as the legislative power. It should be elected every 5 year, why, because that way it is easier to remember when it is an election year (every year that is dividable by 5) and it gives the members of the thing an extra year to get things done. 3) And finally an exertive power, which is the crown. The crown would also have veto right for all laws and have one permanent set in the thing so he can suggest laws. Every law can be past by a simple majority, (and the signature of the fürst). A constitutional change requires a referendum, (and the signature of the fürst) Also a budget must be passed every year, if it is not past by the thing, the fürst is not allowed to collect taxes or borrow money on behalf of the state, meaning that the only way to finance anything would be from his personal wealth. This arrangement would force the Fürst to be cooperative with the thing. The power the Fürst holds is not absolute, and is not arbitrary, and this constellation does not require people to be perfect. And while people can and do make decision for themselves that the state should not interfere in, everyone also have a duty to their fellow man. It is that duty that Ryan forgot. After listing the division of power, the next thing I would like to add to this potential constitution of Atlantis. Basic human rights. - Most importantly the right to life and dignity (for instance it is a crime against humanity to turn little girls into zombies) -The right to be protected from arbitrary prosecution -The right to public speech, while there must be certain limitation, such as hate speech and defamation, people should be allowed to express their opinions openly and without fear of prosecution -The right to privacy -The right to freedom of information (all publicly available information should be free for all) -The protection from unwanted information (all subjects must give their explicit or implicit consent to what information they choose to get. The subjects must be protected from unwanted commercials) It is important that the state have high ethical standards. Consumers for instance, often have little control over what they buy and where they buy it, but as citizen they don’t want demand what they demands. This is because one person cannot affect the market, but the state can, therefore it is up to the state to interfere in all cases where there is a disparity between what a person want as a subject and what they demand as a consumer. The state must not be afraid to interfere in the market, when it knows best, just like there shouldn’t be anything that holds the state back from being an active player in the market, so it can both invest in, and control for profit corporations as well as non profit state monopolies. Ultimately such a state should not be isolated, it should instead be an active player in the world, both because an open economy is better then a closed one (why would anyone believing in liberalism want to practice autarki?), and because as a Scandinavian fürst I would have a higher duty to the rest of the greater Scandinavian nation, just as I have now as a subject, and if true unification became a reality then Atlantis should become a state just like Iceland and Greenland. Who would want to isolate themselves from the rest of the world anyway but a madman? I would also say one last time, everyone if free to leave Atlantis, but as every other nation, we would have standards as to whom would be allowed to settle.Rphb (talk) 18:08, January 3, 2014 (UTC) "But, bottles of Arcadia Merlot that contained invitation to Rapture were found on coasts around the world on August 8, 1968" : Actually, the same applies to steamer trunk in BaS trailer. Why that trunk contains Big Daddy doll, picture of Booker Dewitt and Elizabeth? : Pawn of Atlas (talk) 11:08, February 10, 2014 (UTC) "citizens who had previously failed to stand out under Ryan's Rapture rose to prominent positions." :Whether it was in the concept art book, a podcast, or some other video the designers made an effort to state that people who wouldn't have risen to the top during Rapture's heyday achieved heightened respect and responsibility when Lamb came to power. :Grace? Are you kidding? She struggled just to get by before the war. She was a singer in a hole in the wall bar in Pauper's Drop of all places, does that really describe someone who's doing well for themselves? Later however, she became the "governor" of Pauper's Drop (whether elected official or just someone left in charge by Lamb) with a lot of respect from the residents. :Simon might have been a big name when Rapture was being constructed, but it's pretty clear he went to pieces when the construction boom ended (Father Simon Wales). Again, he gained control of a whole area of Rapture and was the number two man in The Rapture Family, the biggest organization in Rapture during BioShock 2's time. :As for timid Gilbert Alexander, it feels like he was always stuck in the shadows of other scientists like Yi Suchong or Brigid Tenenbaum. :Unownshipper (talk) 21:10, June 28, 2014 (UTC) continued :::If you're going to be hyperbolic with every little sentence, it's just going to frustrate yourself and others. There's a reason why the line says "failed to stand out" and not "were marginalized" or " were relegated to second class status." :::Yes, it is referring to the people like Andrew Ryan, Frank Fontaine, Yi Suchong, Prentice Mill, J.S. Steinman, Brigid Tenenbaum, Anton Kinkaide, Sander Cohen, Ava Tate, Buck Raleigh, etc. "The cream of the crop, rises to the top." Not everyone can stand at the very top of society, so OF COURSE your only going to get "no more than a handful of such in Rapture." :::All the rest aren't "the dregs of society," they all had different roles to play. They just didn't stand out as much. :::"there were previously prominent people who became Lamb's sychophants being given positions of power post Ryan." I don't see how you can call Grace a prominent person. I personally like her character, but the point remains she was living in Pauper's Drop, the worst neighborhood in Rapture. She was "living," but she wasn't living well. She had her own group of devotees, but that hardly makes her prominent. :::Both the Wales brothers seemed to struggle when the construction boom ran its course and their reputation was tarnished as evidenced by the audio diary stating they couldn't get another contract. It seems they failed to diversify their interests unlike Bill McDonagh. If you have such a problem with the word "prominent" then suggest an alternative, b/c while they once were famous, they weren't doing well once Raopture got going. :::Last, Stanley Poole once a simple newspaper reporter, now the keeper of Dionysus Park. Even if this was before 1960, he maintained power thanks only to Lamb. :::"isnt it more like being just the next tier up in the Borg Collective?" WHO CARES! Yes, it's just another chair around the dining room table of a cult, but the people who occupy those seats still have greater power and authority over the other members who are confined to the kiddy table. You could say the same thing about Steinman and Cohen under Ryan's rule, again, it doesn't make much of a difference whether they earned/deserved that power or not, they're in charge. :::Once again someone's referring to some economic crisis in 1952. Where's the proof of it? I've yet to see anything confirming Rapture experienced a financial crisis before the Civil War yet here we see someone claiming it like it's a fact. :::Unownshipper (talk) 21:50, June 29, 2014 (UTC) hello can someone please tell me why I was logged out of time to sign up or something like that because it is pretty friggin stupid I was just trying to sign up! Do We Have Rapture's Location Wrong? Yeah, I know that would seem stupid that we got Rapture's location wrong, but stick with me a moment. The location we have for Rapture is 63° 2' N, 29° 55' W. And we get this location from the note on the box that Jack opens at the start of BioShock. The problem is what the rest of the note says. "To Jack with love, from Mom & Dad Would you kindly not open until 63° 2' N, 29° 55' W" . In other words, the location we have for Rapture is the place where Jack was ordered to hijack the plane, NOT the location of the city itself. Also there is good evidence that Rapture is not at the 63° 2' N, 29° 55' W. When Jack hijacks the plane it is passing though a powerful storm (that may actually down the aircraft if it stays course as seen in Elizabeth's vision in Burial at Sea - Episode 2). BUT when Jack gets to The Lighthouse, the sea is calm and there are just some clouds in the sky and a full moon is out. There in no sign of the storm that the plane was in when Jack hijacked it. That puts Rapture's actual location many miles from 63° 2' N, 29° 55' W. On the ocean you can see a long way and we don't see the storm. Also if Jack started the hijacking at 63° 2' N, 29° 55' W by the time he was done the plane would be many miles away from the city and the plane would have to be flown back to find the city. So what to do about this? Honestly, it is very likely an oversight by the devs and Rapture is supposed to be at 63° 2' N, 29° 55' W. So I'm neither saying we should change the location nor remove it, this Talk is probably all the further it should go. The location we have now is the only info we have. However it would be an interesting trick for Ryan to pull to keep Rapture's location safe. Give out false info to the people of Rapture on the cities location (if one of the citizens talked they would give bad info) and only a very few would actually know the correct one. It's very easy to get lost at sea. So, thought from anyone on this? sm --Solarmech (talk) 09:44, August 22, 2017 (UTC) :I agree that no action should be taken, but it's still an interesting thought to consider. :I've actually thought of this too, but only briefly. The idea that the location 63° 2' N, 29° 55' W is only the spot when he was commanded to take control of the flight crossed my mind and it bugged me, but in the end it's irrelevant. It's entirely possible that Jack took action, incapacitated the pilots, and circled the plane back towards the spot before taking it down. One is inclined to wonder how he didn't die in the crash, but that's an unrelated discussion. :However, I'm not sure what you mean by a powerful storm. To my knowledge, there's nothing to indicate that Apollo Air Flight DF-0301 is passing through any kind of inclement weather. I just re-watched Elizabeth's vision (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNajXutLqkc) and there's nothing. In the opening cutscene from BioShock there appears to be some turbulence, but that can happen in perfectly clear skies. So the lack of any visible storms near the Lighthouse seems meaningless to me. Can you clarify what storms you're talking about? :Unownshipper (talk) 04:08, August 23, 2017 (UTC) ::In BioShock right at the start you hear thunder and the plane shudders from turbulence. :: ::In both of Elizabeth's visions the plane shudders, there is thunder and the lights blink. The "tink" sound you hear is actually something you hear from older lightbulbs when they subject to vibrations. Elizabeth's first vision starts at 2:03:25. The second at 2:16:57. :: ::Jet airplanes travel at least 30,000 feet and on transatlantic flights it can be higher. Jets can fly over smaller storms or only encounter the "peaks" of them which are relatively small area for a small storm. But competent pilots will do their best to avoid even small storms if they can due the possibility of damage (lightning protection was not so great in the 1960's) to the aircraft and the fact flying through turbulence sucks even if it would be 100% safe. That Apollo Air Flight DF-0301 encountered a storm means that the storm was too large avoid or the pilot was stupid. and I don't think the pilot was stupid. sm --Solarmech (talk) 09:25, August 23, 2017 (UTC)